Ep 84- From Insight to Innovation with Summer Craig

Transcript

Transcripts are generated by machine learning, so typos may be present.

BTB (00:00):

Welcome to the Building Texas Business Podcast, interviews with thought leaders and organizational visionaries from across industry. Join us as we talk about the latest trends, challenges, and growth opportunities to take your business to the next level. The Building Texas Business Podcast is brought to you by BoyarMiller, providing counsel beyond expectations. Find out how we can make a meaningful difference to your business at boyarmiller.com and by your podcast team where having your own podcast is as easy as being a guest on ours. Discover more at yourpodcast.team. Now. Here’s your host, Chris Hanslik.

Chris (00:42):

In this episode, you will meet Summer Craig, founder and CEO of Craig Group. Summer’s passion for excellence has helped fuel her company’s growth, and she and her team’s authentic approach to delivering for clients has formed relationships built on trust. Summer, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast.

Summer (01:06):

Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Chris (01:07):

So I know there’s a lot for us to talk about. I want to start with telling, giving the opportunity to tell the audience who your company is and what are you known for.

Summer (01:16):

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, love your podcast. Love what you’re doing, telling people’s stories. So I’m glad to be here.

Chris (01:21):

Thank you.

Summer (01:22):

Yeah, my story is a unique one. Very interesting. It actually started with an actual epiphany that I had. I had a true entrepreneurial lightning strike moment. That moment was sitting in Frisco, Colorado on vacation while rocking my three month old third child,

(01:40):

Which is never the time that you should start a company. But that was Maya. I had an epiphany, and the epiphany really was this, that I was always going to work very hard. I was going to outwork the people around me. I was going to outwork my peers, and I was in a fantastic role, fantastic job, but I had the epiphany that if I was going to always work that hard, no matter what, I could create more value for myself and for the economy by starting my own firm. And I knew that I needed to start my own firm because of that. If I’m going to always do this, why not build something instead of working for someone else and creating value for somebody else? So that was the epiphany, and it was a true anxiety ridden, sweat inducing moment when I knew that I was going to start a company despite having a newborn third child. But fast forward, and we’re five and a half years later and we have a firm of 32 people, and it turns out the epiphany was the right way to go. For me,

Chris (02:41):

That’s a really unique story, and I’m sure your husband thought it was part of brain fog, but you proved him wrong.

Summer (02:48):

Yeah, actually he’s been nothing. I think he said, okay, sure. A little bit, maybe a little more thinking like, oh, we’ll see what actually happens here.

Chris (02:56):

Okay. So it sounds like for you was I want to do this for myself and build something that’s mine. Tell us what it is that you’ve built.

Summer (03:08):

Yeah, absolutely. So what we’ve built is we built a strategic consulting firm. So we consult with sponsor backed, typically private equity backed portfolio companies. We really focus on the middle market, lower middle market. What we do with those companies is we come in at different phases in the whole period, even pre and even in LOI, and we support top line organic growth. So we’ve built a system of tools and a system of really smart people and in a platform that creates a formulaic way to streamline processes, streamline people, streamline technology for growth in these companies. The solution is really right size for companies that have been really successful but haven’t really worked on their operations and growth. So they’re selling whatever they’re selling widgets, whatever it is, but have they truly really looked and said, is there anybody else I could sell to? Could I be doing something better? Could I be faster? Could I do this more cheaply? They haven’t really had to do that, but when the PE sponsors come in, you definitely do have to do that. And what we’re finding is that in a lot of, in-house, and there is a trend of hiring operating partners, which is a newer trend. So some have expertise on top line growth, but for the most part, that expertise is not in-house. So the PE firms need to go outside of their doors to get support to help these firms grow.

Chris (04:26):

So it sounds like you take a company that’s almost been successful despite themselves.

Summer (04:30):

That’s right.

Chris (04:31):

And help them systemize that so that they can maybe leverage it for more success.

Summer (04:37):

Well, yeah, and I mean, I hope some of my clients are listening, but many are in Texas, and I’ll say, it’s so impressive. A lot of industrial manufacturing, unbelievably successful, either family businesses or entrepreneurial led businesses. But you’re right, they haven’t really had to, I’m using air quotes here, but try that hard. They’ve had a great product, they’ve had a great story. The entrepreneur or the founder had a really great connected network. So that gets you to a certain amount of growth. But then when you have PE dollars coming in who are betting on you, there’s a growth mandate. And the growth mandate that activity to grow is not the same as what it takes to start a business. So growth is harder and it takes more structure. And that’s exactly right. We come in and say, man, this is awesome. How can we take what’s awesome, do more of what’s awesome, and let’s try to reduce some of the risk that you have in the business? Probably because nothing’s repeatable, nothing’s written down. Maybe there’s no technology supporting system. So we help them build that structure

Chris (05:36):

And it helps ’em go to scale.

Summer (05:37):

Right, exactly. Right.

Chris (05:38):

So lemme take you back to the beginning, right after the epiphany, what were some of the first things you remember doing to kind of start the business and as you said, build this thing of your own?

Summer (05:50):

What

Chris (05:50):

Were some of those basic building blocks and things you did?

Summer (05:53):

Yeah. Well, for me personally, it was the first thing was pray, look for guidance and then talk to people. So I spoke to a lot of people in my network just saying, Hey, I’ve got this crazy idea. I want to build a firm. And the initial idea, while still very similar to what we do, was really around looking at sales and marketing and being able to tie the two together and prove ROI. So that’s the crux of what we do is show your work, show that this works. And I have a long career of traditional marketing, and marketing has always struggled to tie themselves to results. And that was really the core idea back when I originally founded it. But at the time, I was working for Gulf States, Toyota, best people in the world, and I’ll never work for another company again. I think I topped out working for them and being affiliated with the Friedkin family. They are just salt of the earth. So I was very lucky at the time when I had my epiphany, I said, well, wouldn’t this be great if I built my business plan? And I started my company, but I already had a client that just make me feel better.

Chris (06:53):

For those of you listening, it’s the ideal thing to do.

Summer (06:56):

It really is the ideal. And I think as an entrepreneur, especially somebody that I wanted to do something, but it does mitigate some risk when you first file that paperwork and you’ve got some revenue coming in. So I was lucky enough to have Gulf States Toyota before I actually quit my job. They had agreed to hire my firm, which at the time was me. And we had a great relationship and we ended up entering into a contract where I was consulting with them, and I was able to do that the day I officially opened Craig Group and opened my doors. And I think that gave me just a little bit of peace knowing that there was revenue coming in while I was building all the structure that you have to do, which honestly is quite painful. It’s very

Chris (07:38):

Painful. It’s always more work than you even can think, right?

Summer (07:41):

Absolutely. And if you’ve not done it before, which who has, it’s something that’s a skillset that, I mean, I guess lawyers do it all the time. You probably do it all the time, right? Setting up entities. But I just had this, I probably should have advised, gotten more advice, but I definitely was able to say, oh, I can do this. I can, but you have to create articles of incorporation and what state do you incorporate and why, and and who do you bring in and all those questions. As an entrepreneur, you have to just do

Chris (08:07):

It. We advise on those issues all the time. Of course, I was in a conversation yesterday with someone on the same issues and always tell people, look, because as the entrepreneur, the other thing you’re doing at the very beginning is trying to save every penny you can and people will maybe try to do it themselves on the legal side, and I try to counsel people. It’s an investment in your business, not an expense, but you have to keep it manageable.

Summer (08:32):

You’re exactly right. Exactly. And luckily at that juncture, it was a small enough entity where I was able to get by with it. I cannot today with I have a wonderful legal team, but that time, just as an entrepreneur, it’s really a pain. It’s overwhelming just to figure out how do I get started? But again, I was lucky that I had a client in, so I had revenue coming in. It really enabled me to get a lot of things done. You didn’t have to worry so much about that. And I remember thinking my first goal was, oh, back half of the year, six months, if I could just make my salary back, right? Thinking like, oh, I’ll just replace my income. Well, I quickly got client two, client three, and that I blew past that goal.

Chris (09:14):

Oh, that’s amazing.

Summer (09:14):

It was amazing. It was a little bit of a, I really talked to people and got advice, and those ended up being of my clients eventually when people that I was asking for advice. So that was great, but it was such a funny little goal, which was, okay, if I can do that, then it’s like, okay, I’ve done something that hasn’t been a detriment to my family. I’m adding to the family kitty. Well, we realized like, oh wait, now there’s more

Chris (09:35):

Here. I was just thinking as you were answering that question, you said it’s been just over five years. So given the calendar,

Summer (09:42):

That

Chris (09:42):

Means you started in 2019 and then the world went upside

Summer (09:46):

Down. The world went upside down,

Chris (09:47):

The world went upside down. So let’s talk about every business that starts out. It’s going to face some headwinds, and obviously this was a pretty big one, but just walk us through some of the challenges you faced and how you managed through that, given that you just had this new business.

Summer (10:03):

Absolutely. Well, of course, I was just looking at right before Covid, so Covid was in March. This was February. I was just looking at expanding and getting some more office space, hiring people. I was looking at leases. So that was hilarious, right? Because the minute Covid hit, you don’t sign the lease, which was great that we hadn’t signed it yet. So that was just

Chris (10:23):

A fortuitous,

Summer (10:24):

That was a God thing. But I will say there was a few good things that came out of Covid in general. Covid was very good for Craig Group, and here’s why it was good for Craig Group. I think that middle market businesses that I was working with, and we also work with healthcare companies as well, especially healthcare technology, B2B and B2C, healthcare. I think that what Covid brought to us was that people always did, but then they had to go and find your business online and probably on their phone. So if you were not ready with a digital presence and for sales and marketing, so if somebody could not seamlessly buy something from you online or if they couldn’t research your product online, you were toast in covid.

Chris (11:07):

Very true,

Summer (11:08):

Very true. And even B2B industrial manufacturing businesses that never cared a day in their life about their website, all of a sudden they need their spec sheets to be posted online. They can’t drive over and drop them off in person. They’re not going to trade shows, right? So website, but not just the website, really, the content, the interaction, and then how good is your email response? How good is your team on the phone? How good are they at working those leads? That just got spotlighted. And on the healthcare side, as you can imagine about covid, people are scared to death. At that time, telehealth was nascent

(11:41):

Pretty terrible. It still kind of is, honestly, but some are doing better than others. But we had a large healthcare client and they realized we have to invest here. Patients don’t know how to get in touch with us. Everybody’s scared. People aren’t coming into the doctor’s office or the hospital because everyone’s afraid that they’re going to get covid. So the messaging opportunity for what we do, which is growth, really about growth, we no longer had to convince our clients you need to take action. Because before pre covid, and even at the same time of Covid, there was also this shift with the markets too around PE also said, oh wait, this has been really good times and I actually need to start building organic growth instead of just buying another company and doing roll-ups. So this happened at Very right after Covid. So those two things we stopped having to tell people. People would ask us, why are you doing growth support? We don’t need that. And nobody says that now. There’s no argument. So covid plus what was happening in the deal making PE market, which that’s, that was another big change for us, but it just helped people say, oh my gosh, we need help. We need help right now. And it was a huge growth time for us. So we grew significantly in 2020 and 2021

Chris (12:54):

Stars aligned. It sound like

Summer (12:55):

Stars aligned, and again, it was just one of those who there would’ve been no way to know,

Chris (13:00):

Forecast, foresee, or plan

Summer (13:02):

For, right? No way. The only way that I was able to do is I said, we were able to kind of make hay, which was, okay, we have a door here, so how can I be really good about scaling in a smart way? So I didn’t hire tons of people. I hired slowly. I never wanted to have layoff. So I was able to say, I have an opportunity. Let’s scale slowly due to that growth. We’re also bootstrapped. So we were able to fund our whole company out of revenue, which especially at that time, I wasn’t going to go fundraise. So we just were really lucky that we were able to build something grow, but grow in a, we weren’t growing too fast, that we were getting out over our skis. We were able to service our clients grow as needed. Then it ended up being a good time for us to get our feet under us about who we are as a firm.

Chris (13:53):

It’s a great segue when you talk about the growth you were seeing from the client revenue side forced you to start building your team.

Summer (14:00):

Yes.

Chris (14:00):

So let’s talk about how you went about one, setting the strategy of not growing too fast. You can fail when you do that, but really focusing on making sure you’re making the right hires and adding to your team in the right way.

Summer (14:16):

Yeah. Well, I’ll say I don’t always make the right hires, and I’ve made so many mistakes.

Chris (14:20):

And if you said that, we’d know you’re lying.

Summer (14:22):

Yeah. If there was a thing that I think I could always do better at, it was being even better at hiring. I mean, to me, it’s the hardest thing that I think we do as business leaders, as CEOs and entrepreneurs. So that is something that I think you just get better at, but you still fail. So

Chris (14:37):

For sure,

Summer (14:38):

That’s hard. I have no seek. I have a few things I’ve learned on that side, but I will say on the growth side too, before that, as a person, I’m just a fiscally conservative person in general. So I think some entrepreneurs can get especially more kind visionary, and I think I for sure hold the vision, but I’m very conservative. But that helped us. I think I’ve had to almost pull myself off of that, so I almost can be too conservative. So that’s something that I’ve had to learn about myself, which is I need a counterweight to say, do this. But at that time, it worked. It was a good way to scale. So I am conservative there. But I did realize in terms of people, if I was really going to grow and we have this value prop about growing with sponsor backed businesses, I myself, while I am married to somebody that works in pe, and I know a lot about pe, I never myself worked inside the doors of PE and I really had to have that in my firm in order to just have that credibility just to the Okay, got it.

(15:36):

Right. And so I did decide very early on, we’re growing, we’re having a lot of success. I knew that I had to have somebody else at a partnership level that was going to be able to move us at the next level. And it had to be somebody that did not have my skills.

Chris (15:50):

Hello, friends. This is Chris Hanzlik, your building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs that corporations and business leaders, our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm@boyermiller.com, and thanks for listening to the show.

Summer (16:20):

So I needed somebody that very, has a different background than me, had a different skillset than me. And so that was really a game changing hire. So we brought on at that time, Libby Covington, and again, she comes out of private equity. She was in-house at Cap Street, but also worked at law firms and then had also operated in-house with the Doggett family. So we had a lot in common in that sense, but I knew what she brought and what I brought were going to be complimentary to the market. And that ended up being true. That was, but it was hard deciding to bring in somebody. It’s really hard.

Chris (16:52):

You make it sound really easy. And I

Summer (16:54):

Know it’s not

Chris (16:55):

Because a lot of people, entrepreneurs, maybe just humans in general, we tend people that, so you tend to hire people like

Summer (17:02):

You. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris (17:04):

Instead of doing what you should be doing is what you did. And how do you hire someone that fills you out, right? That’s right. The other side of the skillset sets that you don’t have to make the strong team. So kudos to you for seeing that. And I know of Livy from her days at Cap Street.

Summer (17:20):

Yes.

Chris (17:21):

So then you bring Libby on. Then there’s 30 other people you’ve

Summer (17:25):

Hired in a few years. A long time. That’s right. That’s right. Well, I have Tricia Eaton. She started with me. She was actually my first employee. She now is in of operations role for me. She’s been with me since day one. Can do anything. She’s the person that can do anything. You just give her a problem and she just goes and solves it. So she has just been my right hand woman, and I couldn’t do this without her. So we had Libby, and then quickly, we had to hire some subject matter experts. So me and Libby cannot keep delivering all the work. Tricia can’t deliver all the work. So we really had to go and fill out the teams. And I focused on hiring high margin employees. So where could I bill and where could I charge for their expertise?

(18:08):

And then if there was employees where we didn’t really use ’em that much or it was really low margin, we would usually go with consultants. So I had a bench of 10 90 nines, and we still do, we’ve less. So now we still do. And again, that was another way where we scaled more slowly so it didn’t have to get ahead of ourselves on building when was it the right to have the full-time versus the part-time. That was also a benefit of Covid. So I think Covid, and I’m seeing this today too, it really, I think enabled people to work the way that was better for them. There was a new definition of work

Chris (18:40):

For sure,

Summer (18:40):

And it

Chris (18:41):

Was, it’s being talked about every day

Summer (18:42):

Of course, and especially in your industry too, and law firms with a very kind of traditional track. And I think there’s people that say, I want to work and do really good work, but I can’t work in this way. And whether it was in the office or not, but even if it was maybe I want to do great work, but I need to do it 30 hours a week because I’m taking care of my aging mother,

(18:59):

Or I want this lifestyle, I will make less money, but I need to work this much time from this location. So we leaned in hard on that huge value prop for us. So I think that was one of my successes of being able to hire really great talent. I was able to align with the times it was what it was, but also to truly say, I want your best work. I don’t care if you need to live in Miami. I don’t care if you’re telling me I really have to work 30 hours a week. I have personal responsibilities. I’m like, great. Give me your best 30 hours a week. To me, that’s better than any 40 plus hours a week person that isn’t maybe the best. So we scaled that. We scaled through that way. We also have it, and we still do this today. We bring people on and we do a 60 day trial, and it’s written, it’s papered up, and it says, if this isn’t a fit, we’re going to separate fast.

Chris (19:53):

There’s a lot of value in that. And it does help the saying of higher slow fire fast. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. You get a test run at it.

Summer (20:01):

And that’s right. And sometimes you can’t hire slow. Sometimes I wish I could. I’ve got, I don’t know, four roles we’re hiring right now, and I need ’em to be filled yesterday. But at least we’ve learned that we do have to have a trial period, and we have to be eyes wide open about it. And I just, part of our culture, and it’s part of our values, is we do excellent work. So excellence is part of our culture, but also, if you can’t meet that excellence, you will be let go. We fire people and it’s not a scary thing. We just have no tolerance and something we say in analysis, we don’t have middle managers. We don’t have that. Everyone’s in the

Chris (20:38):

Spotlight. It’s that ownership mentality,

Summer (20:40):

Right? That’s right. And everybody’s like that. So everyone’s in the spotlight. There’s no middle. So you can’t hide at Craig group. So it’s not a good fit for everybody. Some people don’t want that. But we’ve been able to call. But we’ve had, I mean, over the years, I mean there’s been lots of not home runs. There’s hills and valleys there with

Chris (20:57):

Hiring. Well, that’s good for people to hear, right? You’re not always going to get it right. There’s ups and downs just like in life. But if you have a mission like Craig Group does and our firm does, then what your why is. And if something veers off from that, then you stay true to the why and then make those hard decisions.

Summer (21:16):

And it always is. It’s always hard. It’s the hardest thing we do.

Chris (21:19):

No doubt. I want to talk a little bit about innovation, because clearly what your company’s doing is innovative and for PE firms, but just in your space, how do you go about fostering innovation amongst your team and encouraging it within the company?

Summer (21:34):

Yeah, I mean, I think that it is who we are. Honestly. It has to do with every single person that we hire. Again, even going back to the, we don’t have any middle managers mindset, which is there’s no medium, there’s no mediocrity. We’re always, how could you have done better? How could we have done something faster? Wait, what tools did we not use this time? So those questions are asked. Every engagement we have, I’ll say we’re doing something pretty different. We do have a few competitors out there, not very many, but we do something unique. I mean, we are consultants. We do consult, but we’re certainly not a consulting firm. Typically. We’re not an Accenture. Right, because why? Because our people actually get in and then they actually do the work. Not that we don’t do at Accenture, but that’s our model. It is what we do.

(22:18):

So we are boots on the ground. So we actually do the work. So we’re not an agency, but we do some agency work. And then on the technology side, we have a software platform. It’s patent pending. It’s all about forecasting and how do we get better at forecasting sales and marketing? And if we can forecast better, we can then make action. You take action more quickly. And so those are the three things we do. And again, we have some competitors, but what we do as a company inherently is pretty innovative. We’re doing something a little different. The skillset is a little different. We move faster. We have a different, so we are doing something different. I think everybody at the firm knows that and they’re aware of it. It

Chris (22:55):

Is just ingrained in your culture.

Summer (22:56):

It’s just who they are. They know it.

Chris (22:58):

And I’ve been to your website, so I’ll tell you absolutely comes across from your website, which I know is part of the thought that went into design of the website. You show up different.

Summer (23:06):

Yep,

Chris (23:07):

That’s

Summer (23:07):

Right.

Chris (23:08):

So then it seems like that’s part of when you’re hiring these people, you’re looking for someone that can fit that.

Summer (23:13):

That’s exactly

Chris (23:14):

Right. That DNA, that innovative mindset.

Summer (23:17):

That’s right. And something that Libby and I talk about all the time, and again, I fail on it, sometimes I succeed. But we hire, and we’ve really landed on this for Craig group, is we have to hire for people that just figure it out. They just get it done. It’s like I don’t really care exactly what they know or what they’ve done. It’s like, can you solve this problem? Just almost like if you just did a business school case and put it in front of ’em and said, solve it.

Chris (23:39):

Well, I’m curious because I’ve been reading a lot about this lately and we have some internal debate about it in our recruiting process. Do you do any kind of role play as part of your process to put them in the position or challenge them to see how they problem solve?

Summer (23:55):

We don’t do it formally. And I think maybe we also thought about doing it formally, like a formal case. We do it in an informal way, which is here’s a situation that we’re, and usually it’s a real client situation and we say, Hey, what do you think about this? And let them talk it through. So we do it as part of our interview process, but we certainly don’t have it formalized. And I think maybe we should.

Chris (24:16):

I feel like there’s a lot of value in it. I’ve heard people a lot smarter than me talk on it. And the question is, and the question of does that scare a candidate away? And my answer to that is, well, if it does, then maybe we learn something early on. We won. Won’t find out until a year later.

Summer (24:31):

Absolutely.

Chris (24:32):

Right. So I’m kind of the mindset. It seems like a good idea.

Summer (24:36):

I think it’s great. I would agree wholeheartedly. If somebody’s scared of any kind of testing, then that’s probably not a good,

Chris (24:42):

It was not going to be the person that says, let me prove to you I can do this. I’ll figure this out. So just interesting people’s mindsets on

Summer (24:50):

That.

Chris (24:51):

So that always leads me maybe into the culture of Craig Group. How would you describe it and what are some of the things that you believe you’re doing that help foster and allow it to

Summer (25:01):

Grow and flourish? Yeah, I’d say that our culture, again, excellence in our work is really the number one pillar. We have a thing on our mission also. This says no bs. And what we mean by that is we show up authentically. We’re real. We’re real people. We’re real humans. We have everybody that I work with either is caretaking for somebody else in their family, whether it be aging parents, children, they’re passionate about volunteering and they’re doing that. So we are whole humans and whole people. And so I believe in, I don’t want to, if somebody shows up in an inauthentic way with I’m fine, everything’s fine, and I have no tolerance. So we have this rural culture of authenticity, excellence, absolute excellence in client delivery. Everybody shows up with that. It’s our culture. We talk about in hiring, we talk about in our all hands monthly meetings, we talk about it in the way we behave, which is we meet people like where they are today.

(25:52):

It’s okay in Craig group to be very authentically who you are. So that’s just how I am. That’s how I run the company. So we have an authentic culture, but what that also means is everyone at the company, and we’re remote, we do have a lot of people in Houston, but we are remote. But that does require people to communicate with each other, which is, are you okay picking up the phone and saying, because if we’re all going to have no BS and we’re going to work hard, you have to know is your team okay? What’s

Chris (26:17):

Going on in their life might impact their ability to deliver excellence?

Summer (26:22):

A hundred percent. Which is like, tell me, do you need help?

Chris (26:24):

My follow-up question was going to be, you sounded like a remote company. So creating the connectivity of that culture, especially at that level that you’re trying to achieve has got to be challenging because you’re not in person.

Summer (26:37):

It’s so hard. It’s so hard. And again, I think we have a cameras on culture and everyone’s cameras are on. And I mean, we are all on video calls all day, which pros and cons. But I think that everyone’s leaned into that. We can’t be grumpy about that. And everyone’s also required to do really good work. But from a training standpoint, and I think we’re getting better at this, I think we can keep getting better. We’re not perfect, but working asynchronously, which is what remote work is, not everybody knows how to do that. You can’t assume that everybody just knows how to work asynchronously. It’s a skillset, knowing when to do AY work versus when do you need to have an in-person meeting knowing when those workflows, that is not something that I think you can just know.

(27:23):

And so we definitely have an expectation that everyone works really efficiently, asynchronously, and I love asynchronous work. Personally. I think it’s way more efficient than getting in a big meeting full of people all at the same time and wasting everybody’s time. But there is also this times to get everybody in the meeting and together. But we are doing better at training people about asynchronous expectations. So we use very technology heavy, very tool heavy. So we use a tool. There’s a tool called Loom. It’s a video tool. Basically you can explain something really quickly on your own time and then send it to people so then they can go figure out what you’re trying to explain to them. Even if you couldn’t meet in person. We use project management software. Basecamp is the one we use. Other people use Asana. So we use Basecamp and all of our work is asynchronously matched. And so I think that culture though, one thing that we move really fast. So the culture is, again, with the excellence and you can move fast with async work, sometimes it slows you down. You need to just pick up the phone instead of, and that’s a lot of times where I get into things is, Hey, let’s stop doing this. Call each other. Somebody is not understanding.

(28:29):

But our culture is really, we move really fast. Our clients have extremely high expectations. I mean, our clients are PE firms. There’s no tolerance.

Chris (28:39):

They’re worried about the ROI

Summer (28:40):

And they want the growth yesterday. Yes, yesterday. And so we work under that pressure with all of our clients, high intensity, high growth. So we’re high intensity that we match our clients. That’s who we are. And I think it works really well with the remote team. I think we’ve been able to hire people that want that high intensity work. If you don’t want it, you can tell and it doesn’t work with that shows up real quick.

Chris (29:05):

Shows up. Yeah. So you were talking about your base clients, the PE firms. Let’s talk about what are some of the things you found to be successful for you and your company to build and maintain those relationships so that you keep ’em and you get more?

Summer (29:18):

Yeah, absolutely. So I think it’s challenging to I think sell anything, which we’re selling a service, but I think it’s challenging to sell into, I don’t want to put ’em all in the same basket. So not all PE or independent sponsors or sponsor books, they’re not all created equal, right? So you can say that, but it is a tight group of people. It’s tight knit. It’s a small group. I think it’s elite. Most people that have those roles, very well educated, they have great experience. I think you really have to be trustworthy. They are not going to pull in a partner that has not been vetted, that hasn’t really been like, this is the real deal. So those relationships are really hard earned. Those are not easy to come by. I will say me and Libby both have our own sets of networks that was enabled sort of the catalyst. But the only reason why that’s been able, we’ve had success is because we’ve had to prove it. And when we prove it, we then can build onto the next one and the next one. And I mean, our model would be that we become a partner with the firm and that they bring us in on multiple portfolio companies. And that’s what happens, right? But it’s hard. It’s not something that we’re not selling something that’s not high value, high stakes. And we really are a partner. We’re not a vendor. And that takes a lot of trust.

(30:35):

We have to spend a lot of time.

Chris (30:36):

Yeah, it’s funny. I can totally relate. Our mindset here at the firm is the same. We want to be, as we say this all the time, the legal partner to our clients, an extension of the C-suite. Not a vendor, not a commodity, but an actual value added partner.

Summer (30:51):

Yes, that’s exactly right. And it’s hard to get there. You don’t just say that and like, oh, I want to be a growth partner. I want to be a member of your management team. It’s like, okay, prove

Chris (30:59):

It.

Summer (31:00):

And so I think that we do that. I think our team consistently delivers best in class results and best in class work. We’re also right sized for the lower middle market and middle market. And I think that’s what needs to happen. It’s not Bain and they can’t do it anyways, but we’re also not your sister’s brother that’s going to help you with sales and marketing out of their garage. So I think we’re right sized and for our size, for where we are in the market, I think we’re an absolute best in class option. And we’ve had to prove it and prove it. And that’s also why we have best in class talent because proven and proven it. But it’s definitely been, it’s a hard fought. It’s hard fought. Every single win is a hard,

Chris (31:42):

You’re only as good as the last one, right?

Summer (31:43):

That’s right. I mean, it’s digging ditch is hard. We have to say, we’re making sure that every time we deliver the work product, the trust, and then also the ability to immediately implement our plan. And that’s one we really stake our hats on that we don’t just give you a, here’s some really great ideas that you can’t implement, nor do you have the money to go hire the team to do it. So we really, it’s hang our hat on. Let’s roll, let’s go. And it’s ready to go. And so that’s hard. It’s hard work. This is tough. And so that’s exactly right. We need that to be so good that the firm, the CEO of the Portco and the firm are going to say, man, that was really worth it. What would we do without that team? Where would we be right now without that team?

Chris (32:25):

Where else can we use them?

Summer (32:26):

And that’s what it, we can’t have to keep going on this. We have to keep, so that’s right. And again, I think we get it right more times than we don’t. I think we can always give it better.

Chris (32:36):

The results would suggest that. But to your point, the last word you just said, right, was if you don’t have the mindset of continuing to how can we improve, you’re going to get left behind.

Summer (32:49):

That’s right. And I think a lot of my core team, one of my senior strategists, Macy Allen, I think every time she works on something, she comes up with another innovative idea about what if we would’ve done this or wait this tool. Can we try out this tool? We’re really leaned into, I said, technology and AI and our work, but I think that what works so well is the answer is yes, bring it in, let’s try it. Let’s test it. So it’s not a no, this is the way and this is what we do. And while we do want to keep our template and we do have a methodology, what we do has to be pushed, pressure tested all the time. And she’s one. And there’s many other on the team that really say, oh, what about this? And I read about this, or I heard about this and let’s try it. But we have to do that for our clients to keep being, keep improving.

Chris (33:34):

That’s great. So I want to talk a little bit more personally about you and just your leadership style. How would you describe that and how do you think it’s evolved since you started this five years ago?

Summer (33:45):

Yeah. Well, I mean I think it definitely has evolved. I think that also going from having two people to this very large team, we’re a very flat organization, so we don’t have lots of hierarchy. So most people directly report to me, probably too many, which is something we’re working on. But I think I’ve got a very straightforward management style. So there’s really not a lot of dancing around things. There’s not a lot of confusion. If I’m telling you something, it’s probably going to be very clear. I also give feedback continuously. I believe in spot feedback, so we don’t wait and write it down and wait for the quarter end to go back and report. I think that’s just tiresome. So everyone is encouraged to give spot feedback, both positive and negative, and do it in that moment. Sometimes I will do it in our project management tool and say, spot feedback and just put it, and that way if it’s written, sometimes they can have some time to

Chris (34:35):

React

Summer (34:36):

As opposed to,

Chris (34:37):

I like how you signpost it though.

Summer (34:39):

Yeah. I say Spot feedback, get prepared thyself. You are getting feedback. And I put it and I just say it. And I think that I lead with kindness always. I think that truth without kindness is cruelty. And that’s a direct quote from my husband, Jason Craig, one of his themes. And I think that being kind to people, even when you’re frustrated, is the only way to be so lead with kindness, but also tell the truth, which is, this went well, this didn’t go well, but it’s not about you as a human. We are not making a personal judgment about you, but this work product wasn’t what it needed to be or whatever it is. But I tend to give feedback. Again, it’s rapid. I lead very crisply in the moment. I’ve had to get even more efficient with that with a lot of people, and I don’t see all the things. And so I definitely try to speak to a lot of people to get other people’s opinions on work product. So I talk to a lot of people. I talk to clients, ask for feedback, and then go and manage my employees through are what I heard from clients. So yeah, I think a management style, again, I think I get a lot of feedback and a lot information, but crisp kind, but really crisp and some

Chris (35:48):

Compassion.

Summer (35:49):

Always. Always.

Chris (35:51):

So that’s something you mentioned. I don’t think a lot of people think to do or they think about it, but they’re scared to do it. And that’s get feedback from your clients. It’s the most valuable feedback you can get because you’re really trying to serve the clients, but if you’re not delivering what they want in the way they want it, you’re missing the mark. You can work hard and you can believe it’s excellent, but if they don’t believe it’s excellent. So anything you do that’s kind of systemize that or is that just periodic check-ins with your clients or

Summer (36:23):

I don’t like the people will disagree with me on that. And there’s a whole theory in marketing around net promoter scores, which is it just a survey essentially. We’re just not big enough for that. I need to be able to call out all my CEOs, which I do, and I get feedback and write it down. I talk to all of my CEOs at least every other week, and I ask them every time, and sometimes they would say, I don’t even know. Go talk to the other team. And I do, which is great, because if the CEO doesn’t know if anything’s good or bad, that’s great.

Chris (36:51):

Excellent. That means there’s no problems

Summer (36:52):

That’re excellent. But no, I do it continuously. I see that as really one of my roles in sort of steering the ship is talking and saying what’s, and I want everything. I want silly stuff, little bitty things. I got some of that last week. It was a really super small thing, but that it matters.

Chris (37:10):

That’s right.

Summer (37:11):

I want all the things. So I just try to have a relationship that’s very trustworthy. It’s informal in the sense that you can come, we can talk. I want that kind of relationship. I don’t need it to be something that’s this

Chris (37:21):

Big thing. You don’t need an email saying click the button and fail survey.

Summer (37:24):

I really hate it. I really do. I mean, again, somebody’s going to quote me on that a few years when we do that and send them out. No thanks. We’ll ask directly.

Chris (37:32):

I’ll say this, I’m not in favor of ’em either, and I don’t know that you get the most authentic feedback right now at some point, if you’re so big, maybe you don’t have a choice, but never lose the personal.

Summer (37:42):

Yeah, that’s right. That’s

Chris (37:43):

Right. Summer, this has been such a fun conversation. I want to just end on a few lighter notes.

Summer (37:48):

Okay.

Chris (37:48):

What was your first job growing up?

Summer (37:51):

Oh, lifeguard. Lifeguard out at Pecan Grove Country Club out in Richmond, Texas, which might’ve been my most favorite job I’ve ever had. I still love taught Swim.

Chris (38:01):

You got to wear a bath suit. You were the most tan you’d ever been.

Summer (38:04):

I was the most tan. I also loved to swim. I love teaching swim lessons. And I was a swimmer, and it was great.

Chris (38:10):

Very good. Native Texan.

Summer (38:12):

Native Texan. Born in Odessa, Texas. Yeah, native Texan. Lived in Oklahoma, lived in Illinois, but I’m back in Texas.

Chris (38:20):

Okay, so do you prefer TexMex or barbecue?

Summer (38:23):

Tex-Mex.

Chris (38:24):

All right. I usually ask people this question, but you have three young kids, I don’t know, but if you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where’d you go? What’d you do?

Summer (38:32):

Yeah, my husband and I, even though we in the flattest part of Texas, I think that’s under sea level. We really love to mountain climb, so we’re hikers and climbers. We try to take a pretty big trip every year or so if we can. We did a really big trip this summer. It would be a no-brainer. I mean, we would go and climb a really big mountain Chen Kawa and in South America has been on his list. I can’t quite get it on mine because it’s a 30 day trip and I’ve got a 11-year-old, a 9-year-old, and a five-year-old, and I can’t quite do that. But if I could wave a magic wand and I could be gone for 30 days, I would go climb AUA and spend time in South America.

Chris (39:07):

How cool. That’s a good one. Well, thanks again for taking the time. Love your story. Congratulations on the success that you’ve already achieved and that I know in your future.

Summer (39:16):

Thanks Chris. Appreciate having me on.

Chris (39:21):

And there we have it. Another great episode. Don’t forget to check out the show notes at boyarmiller.com/podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at boyarmiller.com. That’s it for this episode. Have a great week and we’ll talk to you next time.