Ep 81- Reimagining Tradition with John Marvin

Transcript

Transcripts are generated by machine learning, so typos may be present.

BTB (00:00):

Welcome to the Building Texas Business Podcast, interviews with thought leaders and organizational visionaries from across industry. Join us as we talk about the latest trends, challenges, and growth opportunities to take your business to the next level. The Building Texas Business Podcast is brought to you by BoyarMiller, providing counsel beyond expectations. Find out how we can make a meaningful difference to your business at boyarmiller.com and by your podcast team where having your own podcast is as easy as being a guest on ours. Discover more at yourpodcast.team. Now. Here’s your host, Chris Hanslik.

Chris (00:00):

In this episode, you’ll meet John Marvin, CEO and president of Texas State Optical. John shares his views on how the fundamentals of leadership boil down to influencing and how having mutual accountability in your business relationships create wins situations. John, I want to thank you for taking the time to join me today. Really been a pleasure to get to know you before we got started here.

John (00:25):

Well, Chris, I appreciate the opportunity to sit down. I always love talking about business.

Chris (00:30):

Well, that’s good. That’s what we’re going to do. So you’re the CEO and President of Texas State Optical, or most people notice TSO.

John (00:36):

That’s right.

Chris (00:37):

Tell us a little more detail about what is the company, what does it do, and what is it really known for in the market?

John (00:43):

Okay. Well, Texas State Optical was founded in 1936 by four brothers, the Rogers Brothers in Beaumont, Texas. And anybody who’s been to Beaumont or familiar with Beaumont knows the impact those four brothers had on that community. And then in turn, throughout Texas, two of the brothers were optometrists and they opened pretty traditional optometry practice. And if you’ll think about what else was going on in 1936 in Beaumont, it was the oil boom that was just blowing up. And so the one that originally came to Texas from Chicago, all four of ’em were from Chicago, called back home and said, boys, you need to move down here. We got a big opportunity. And they did. And consequently, over the next several years, they built a large retail optical chain. They called Texas State Optical. And one time in the early sixties, it had reached over 300 locations.

(01:44):

And those were in New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas. And so that went on until due to some legal issues with the state optometric group who decided that they didn’t want someone in the state running 300 locations. They passed some legislation that limited optometrists to only three locations. And so they could subsequently, after long legal battle, had to sell off most of their property, but they kept the core of the business of the optical lab. They kept that and kind of a condition of buying the practice was that you obligated yourself to continue to purchase items from them. But then in the late sixties, the Rogers having gone through this process of dissolving their ownership in it, decided to turn their attention towards real estate development. And at one point, they owned 25% of Caesar’s Palace in Vegas. They just got involved in other things.

(02:46):

And then consequently, in the early seventies, they sold the company to a large pharmaceutical company, GD S, who then subsequently sold the company in the early eighties to Pearl Vision. Most people are familiar with Pearl Vision and ran that until the late eighties when they sold it to a group of kind of investors who wanted to own it. They didn’t really know how to run it, the investors. So I got involved in 19 three doing consumer research for the corporate office. My background at the time, I had a company marketing management group and based here in Houston, and it was a small marketing management and consumer research group and was doing work in other areas, but picked them up as a client and began to do a lot of consumer study for ’em and learned about the business. At that time, it was somewhat distressed because of the leadership that had taken over from the Pearl Vision taken over Pearl. And so there was a lot of unrest about among the franchisees because at that time, TSO was a franchise operation. And so I helped them form a franchise association and then kind of on a part-time arrangement took on an executive director position within that while maintaining my consumer study and research stuff. And so that happened until the late nineties when everyone was planning for the great millennium, the 2000 and Y 2K.

(04:23):

And so we gathered everybody in my conference room over here and Hal Booty building and down here in the Galleria, and they started flip chart sheets, what do we want to accomplish? And blah, blah, blah. And the result of that was really, guys, you’re not going to get any of this done unless you own it. And so we began to have some discussions about them buying the company, the franchisor, and that took about a year to negotiate. And during that process, I was asked to come on as the new president, and then we closed in June of 2001. And since that time I’ve been the acting and operational president and CEO of the company. And one of the reasons that it appealed to me was it was the ultimate fixer upper

(05:08):

Because the company had really was kind of loosely held together, but had an iconic brand. And so we started opening new locations with young optometrists and we’re a brand licensed company, so we knew that the only way we could pick up a new customer if a young OD wanted to open their own practice and then we could help them do that, people that were established at the time and successful weren’t interested in converting to a retail trade name. So we did. We opened up about 80 new locations and helped a lot of young ods live a dream and had put together a whole turnkey system, commercial realty contractors, the whole nine yards.

Chris (05:54):

That’s a fascinating history to see it grow so big in the beginning, get broken down, and then almost come back together with, I guess in 2001 you said with these individual practice owners or franchisees becoming owners, that’s kind of unique, especially for

John (06:14):

Doctors. It was a different approach to it. One of the reasons we set it as a, now we never incorporated as a cooperative. We incorporated as for-profit. We simply chose to run it as a cooperative, which by its nature a co-op isn’t intended to make money,

Chris (06:31):

Right?

John (06:32):

So we could keep the services and the value of what we offer members very high because we priced it at a breakeven point. And so it was very appealing to a lot of young ods who needed that help without any experience knowing what to do. And of course, we then had a retail trade name that had market appeal. So a lot of them benefited greatly by, as opposed to opening up under their own name and unknown in a community.

Chris (07:02):

It gives it instant credibility with the brand name, right?

John (07:06):

That’s right.

Chris (07:06):

What are some of the things, I guess that you, since that time in 2001 that you do and your team around you to kind of help preserve that brand value to make it marketable and enticing to these doctors?

John (07:21):

Well, part of it is the importance. An optometry practice as a small business has a very defined marketplace of about three radium miles. So one that’s part of that is because there are so many options and the profession is a licensed profession. And so there’s a little bit of perception by consumers that it’s a commodity. In other words, anybody who’s got a license will be able to give you a good exam. And consumers at one time, back in the sixties and seventies, thought mostly of wherever they got their exams, that’s where they purchased their eyewear

Chris (08:06):

Convenience, right. Nothing else.

John (08:08):

Convenience. That’s right. And in the eighties, you had a much more proliferation of retail optical chains like LensCrafters and Eye Masters at the time, and Pearl Vision, which were creating an awareness among consumers that, you know what? I can get my exam in one location and I can buy my eyewear in another location. And so that added to that sense of commodity. And so what we’ve done is focus on a three mile marketplace. So instead of running one advertising campaign in Houston, we run 50 around each of our locations. And those are largely driven through community involvement, pay per click today, pay per click. In the beginning though, a lot of it was just getting to know your school nurse, getting to know the coaches in the league ball. And so from a marketing strategy, it was always hyperlocal standpoint. And so if you go into some neighborhoods, everyone knows the TSO. If you go into an neighborhood where we have no location, maybe not so much. And that was done probably more just from a practical standpoint of cost than it was anything else. Because Houston and Dallas, where we’re at in San Antonio, they’re very expensive media markets.

(09:31):

And so if you’ve only got 20 locations in the DFW market to go in and try to buy television advertising or something more traditional is prohibitive. And so it makes a lot more sense because that’s where people live and work. People ask me sometimes, how do you go about picking your locations, your real estate stuff? And I said, we tend to let Kroger and HEB do that for us. So wherever they’re at, we want to be close because that’s a neighborhood.

Chris (10:00):

That’s right. You figured they thought there were enough households to support grocery stores. So I like that. That’s a lesson there though for a business owner, an entrepreneur in that you don’t necessarily have to do all your own organic research if you are aware of what’s going on, you can let someone else do some of that and just make sure that their end users look like yours. That’s

John (10:23):

Right. They do a tremendous job both of those companies at understanding the market before they ever buy land or pour concrete. And I’d hate to insult them by not taking advantage of all that good work they’ve done.

Chris (10:38):

They’re genius. Right? They’re genius. That’s right. So I mean, you just mentioned, you said 30 different or 50 different marketing campaigns in Houston alone. I mean, how do you go about figuring out the right message for the right place? That must take a lot of

John (10:52):

Work. Well, not so much. I mean, because the message in Sugarland is the same as the message in the Woodlands. I mean, people, while we as in our profession try to complicate this, it’s pretty simple from a consumer standpoint. They’re looking for a place where they can get their eyes checked and buy a pair of glasses, but probably two thirds of all of our revenue today come from a third party payer. So that changes the basic consumer behavior dynamic. But by putting out a message that really is focused on that group of people in terms of maximizing the value of those coverage benefits, that became real consistent, and then it’s a matter of just being louder than anybody else.

Chris (11:41):

Sure. While we’re on the subject of that consumer and consumer behavior, what are some of the things that you have done over the last 10, 15 years to either combat that online competition as you mentioned, because people can get their eyes examined and they can either go online or do something. How are you managing that and what are some of the strategies you found to be successful?

John (12:04):

Well, first of all, the consumers are driven. And I think this may be generally true, but certainly our consumers are driven with the priority on convenience. And one of the reasons the online purchase of eyewear is so appealing is it’s convenience. And oftentimes it’s not a price issue as much as it is a convenience issue and assortment and collect selection. So one of the things that we focus on is to make sure that our retail dispensary, that’s what we call the retail store aspect of a practice, is well inventoried with product and assortment price points. And then the ultimate differentiation is customer service and knowledgeable people. And so if you have selection, pricing and knowledgeable people, it’s a home run and you don’t have to worry about, because if you can make it convenient for them, then they’re not tempted to go online. And because there’s a lot of, I don’t know if you’ve ever bought a pair of shoes online, but all you need to do is have one bad experience with that and have to turn around, send them back, and with so on that people would really prefer to get it locally where I got where they received their exam, and it’s kind of hours to lose. So we try to make sure we don’t give them a reason to leave.

Chris (13:29):

Yeah. Well, it’s an interesting analogy with the shoes because I can relate to that and see people like to try on shoes, but also glasses. What are these really going to look like? And if you’re at a store with a good selection, it’s all right there as opposed to ordering one or two online and knowing you’re going to be returning something. Hello, friends, this is Chris Hanzlik, your building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations, and business leaders. Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm@boermiller.com and thanks for listening to the show. That’s right, yes. Well, that’s it. So let’s shift now kind of to this physician member network. What do you look for, if anything, as far as qualifying people to come into the brand and then how do you help manage and support once they’re in the network, if you will, to make sure that you’re doing all you can to help them be

John (14:37):

Successful? It’s an interesting change we’re seeing right now, especially in the last five to 10 years, and that is the number of young optometrists who have an interest in owning their own practice is going away. It’s really an interesting thing. One, it’s very similar to what’s going on in healthcare in general. I was just talking to some people last week and I said, when was the last time I asked them? I said, do you have children? Yes. Do you have a pediatrician? Yes. Is that pediatrician private practice? No, it’s owned by some big organization like Texas Children’s. And what you’re seeing in healthcare delivery at the provider level is a consolidation of these organizations in the disappearing of private practice. And we’re seeing that now in optometry. And another big dynamic is 85% of all optometry graduates today are female.

(15:36):

And in the eighties, that number was just the opposite. It was very unusual in the eighties and early nineties to see women in optometry school. I mean, they certainly didn’t represent the majority. And so with that comes different priorities of practice. You don’t have the hard charging young guy who wants to go into small town Texas and really build up a big practice or even a metro area. You have people that are much more interested in part-time than I want to be able to step aside, raise my family, then maybe come back later. And so there’s a whole different culture among the providers now coming in. So our organization as a business model relies on young optometrists wanting to own their own practice. And if that category is declining, we’ve got to come up with some other plan here to maintain.

Chris (16:29):

Sure.

John (16:29):

So one, the opportunities we have are less, the vetting process is largely a discussion with very successful people. Our board of directors consist of nine doctors and three outside directors, but the nine doctors are all very successful. And so a young person does approach me and we talk, I want them to speak to one of our successful guys, and then their job is to kind of assess and come back to me and say, John, I don’t know if she’s ready. I don’t know if he can do this, or I think this is a home run, let’s go. And with their input and my discussion, I’ve been doing it now long enough that I get a feel for it, then we’ll say let’s go. And really it’s a matter of they own everything. It’s a matter of us guiding them through the process and then supporting them with just the knowledge they don’t have about building a practice afterwards. And then lots of follow up and handholding.

Chris (17:29):

And it’s done, I think you said just as basically a license agreement where they’re licensing the name and brand and they get some support as a

John (17:38):

Result of that

Chris (17:38):

As well.

John (17:39):

I mean, contractually, I’m not obligated to support anything. All I’m obligated to do is to keep the value of the brand consistent with what they’re for it. But I realized that if they’re not successful, my brand value suffers. So we do all that we can to support them and help them be successful.

Chris (18:00):

So let’s talk a little bit about your internal team. You’ve got a team, I think you said a 12, that kind of helps support you, that support these members. What have you found to be successful as you’ve gone through maybe trials and tribulations of hiring the right people and making sure you’ve got the right people in the right seat to support the business and the brand?

John (18:22):

That’s a great question because up until about 2015, I took a whole different approach to personnel than I did 2015 and on. And it was like I learned something. And that is I put together a group of really knowledgeable people in terms of their expertise in certain areas. But the quality that I had not paid attention to prior to that was they also had to be connectors. They had to be the kind of people that could say, Hey, Chris, I know somebody you ought to talk to. And so because when a non-doctor walks into a doctor’s office, even with the responsibility of helping, they carry a different level of credibility with that doctor than if a doctor told them something. If we go in and say, Hey, listen, you need to be open Saturdays, a lot of business on Saturdays I don’t want to do. But if a doctor tells ’em, oh, man, you got to be open Saturday, they’ll listen to it. And so our guys who are in the field, they do tactical training and support for staff, but when a doctor’s facing an issue that they know the answer to, they in turn seek out other leadership in the doctor community to say, would you mind giving so-and-so a call because I think you could help them get through whatever issue they’re dealing with. And so that quality, and frankly, it requires someone who doesn’t have much of an ego,

(19:55):

Because I say this all the time, like my old friend Ronald Reagan used to say, there’s no limit to what you can accomplish if you don’t care who gets the credit.

Chris (20:04):

Yeah,

John (20:06):

Great. We take that approach, and ours isn’t about trying to get a bunch of credit, ours about trying to lift up this organization and get these guys successful. And if we are simply a facilitator in information to how to do that, we don’t have to be the initial provider of that information. Even if we know it, it comes much better from a colleague. And so that’s one of the things that we put a lot of emphasis on is helping the network helped each other.

Chris (20:34):

So you were very quick to say 2015. Have you seen a dramatic improvement in the performance of the overall business since making that change and kind of focusing on the connector quality as being an additional important quality and the people you bring on?

John (20:54):

Very much so, because what Texas State Optical was in the beginning was a doctor owned organization and doctors working with other doctors to help them grow a network or a large business. We’re trying to replicate that from the standpoint, especially as the business, the structure we use, I mentioned earlier as a cooperative, it requires doctor leadership to be active and engaged in running their own company, their owners of the company. And so while I have certainly an important role in that, the more doctors that engage in the leadership of the organization, the better it is overall. And since we took that intentional effort in 2015, a couple of things too, we had a kind of an evolution of membership. I mean, we had a lot of our older doctors retire and sell practices, and then we had a whole influx of young doctors. And so we ended up in 2015 with an organization that was significantly different demographically both age and gender, but we thought they need mentorship among the leadership in the organization. And so we worked at creating that for them. And it impacts not just clinical, I mean there’s also that aspect of it. They’re learning clinically from friends, but operationally. And so it made a big difference.

Chris (22:24):

Very good. I know that you got supply agreements with certain labs and other things. Let’s talk about some of the things that you found to be successful in maintaining, I guess, forming those kind of key strategic relationships for the business and maybe some of the things you do to make sure that you foster and keep ’em strong.

John (22:43):

Well, in the vendor doctor community, there is kind of an assumption made by both sides. And one, the doctor assumes that the vendors got more money than they know how to spend, or they’ve got all this money to spend, and the vendor assumes the doctor’s not going to follow through on all the promises they make. So that’s kind of where we start at the table. And so I think it’s important, and what we’ve worked at bringing to our relationships is mutual accountability. And we have found our vendor partners to be extremely invested in our success, but at the same time, they’ve got a business to run as well. And so our success with them in that dynamic of that exchange or relationship cannot be at the vendor’s expense. It’s got to be the classic cliche win type of thing,

(23:41):

But you only get win if you have mutual accountability. And so in every agreement we have, here’s what the vendor commits to and here’s what the doctor community commits to. And then we have business reviews where we sit down and say, here’s where we’re dropping the ball, or here’s where you’re dropping the ball. And we hold that. Accountability goes a long way to not only making the relationship productive, but also building trust and longevity into those partnerships. Because if you’re making money with a partner, you don’t want it to stop. And that goes both ways. If you’re a doctor making money with a partner, you don’t want it to stop. And if you’re a partner, you don’t want to stop. So I found that type of mutual accountability and the willingness to be held accountable is critical to those relationships.

Chris (24:36):

Very good. So talk a little bit about leadership. You’ve been running this organization for a long time now. How would you describe your leadership style and how do you think that’s evolved over time?

John (24:48):

Well, I don’t know if I’ve ever been asked to describe it, but I would say it’s Maxwell.

Chris (24:54):

And

John (24:55):

That means John C. Maxwell, who is an author, has written a number of books on leadership. And in my opinion, probably is the best leadership author in, I’m biased of course, but I think he is. Forbes magazine said that a few years ago. But basically his definition of leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. It’s just influence. And an example of that is if you walk into a room of people, you’re naturally going to notice someone who’s exercising influence on others. And it isn’t an authoritarian way. It’s in a trust and credibility way. And so if you’re influencing, you’re leading. If you’re not, it doesn’t matter what title you have. So an example is when I explained how we use doctors to help influence other doctors. So that’s a level of influence that doesn’t come because I require somebody to do something. It occurs because you’re able to influence others to make a difference. So I’m a big believer in that, and I’ll plug his book. There are 21 irrefutable laws of leadership is a classic. And so that’s like a bible. It’s my business bible in terms of leadership

Chris (26:19):

Style, I was going to use that word because others, and it is fair to plug up books. Sometimes I ask people, what’s a book you would recommend? We hear a lot Good to great from people, Jim Collins. But what I love what you said, if you’re influencing your leading, because I say a lot of times a true leader leads without a title, you’re actually doing things without the title to demonstrate leadership, which is what you’re talking about.

John (26:42):

Exactly. And if you do have the title and can influence, it’s a home run.

Chris (26:47):

It’s a home run. So you’ve learned that through lots of trials and tribulations. I think we all learned through mistakes or setbacks. Anything you could share with the listeners about decision made that didn’t go the way you thought, but you learned from it, and that learning kind of catapulted you, made you better because of it, setback, failure, whatever word you want to describe, anything you care to share in that realm?

John (27:15):

Sure. So I came to Houston. I was born and raised in Western Kansas, and I was in Wichita, Kansas in 1989, excuse me, in the late eighties, 84, 89 area. And I was working for a large ophthalmology practice up there as a marketing administrator. And in that role, I attended a lot of national meetings in ophthalmology. And during that meeting, I met an owner of a large Houston ophthalmology group who ended up offering me a job. And I came to Texas due to some marketing challenges we were facing at that practice. I was introduced to Texas State Optical while I was at that practice. And then after about four years left that practice and went to a consumer research firm here in Stafford and quickly turned around and went to Texas State Optical to see if they would like to buy some insurance. I’m not insurance, buy some research. And they did. So I ended up doing this large project for them, but also ended up doing a ton of work for HLMP during the time they were prepared to try to go to battle with Enron.

Chris (28:29):

And

John (28:30):

This was early nineties, and so everything was going well. And then I get fired from the research thing. Now I move my family down from Kansas. I’ve been in the state about five and a half years, and I get fired. And that was a big, and anytime you’ve been fired, that’s kind of devastating

Chris (28:50):

Personally.

John (28:50):

It shakes you up a little. Yeah, it does. But had that not happened, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing. And so I have learned, and what pulled me through that is faith. Faith in God and faith in myself. And I felt like I can do, there was a part of it, Chris, that was liberating, that was like instead of thinking now what am I going to do, I was thinking, now what am I going to do? I mean, it was a whole different frame of attitude. And that subsequently ended up leading to the position I have today through working with franchisees at Texas State Optical and so forth.

Chris (29:31):

That’s a great story. Thank you for sharing. You

John (29:33):

Bet.

Chris (29:33):

A lot of people don’t want to talk about, especially if they’ve been fired for something. But to your point on that, these other opportunities would’ve presented themselves, right, because likely stayed in the comfort of the job and seeing where that takes you. There’s so much that can come.

John (29:49):

Actually, I’d gone to that research firm, the owner of it had brought me there with the promise implied, but I mean, not implied, but it wasn’t in writing. But the idea was that I would take over that firm at some point, and it turned out that didn’t work out.

Chris (30:09):

A lot of what you, I think described the undertone to that is the mindset you had in the wake of that setback. You didn’t let it set you take you down. You’re like, okay, like you said, what am I going to go do is I got all these opportunities and go forward, figure it out.

John (30:27):

Well, I had about 30 days before the next house payment came through.

Chris (30:31):

So you were acting quick.

John (30:32):

Got to be decisive, man. You can’t be stewing on decisions forever. For

Chris (30:36):

Sure. So that leadership is forged and helped you get to where you are today. When you think about applying that mindset and that leadership style, how does it help you navigate the ups and downs of the economic cycles that we’ve experienced over the last 20 plus years?

John (30:57):

Well, first of all is to understand which of these cycles are cyclical? That’s a little redundant, but I mean, what is it we’re going through that’s cyclical that you can, business loves a stable and predictable environment.

Chris (31:13):

Right

John (31:14):

Now, the reality is it’s ups and downs, but if it’s ups and downs within a certain range of up and down, it’s stable and you can prepare for it.

Chris (31:24):

Certain tolerances,

John (31:25):

Right? Yeah, certain tolerances. What we’ve seen, not only in the economy, and that’s a whole different issue, but what we’ve seen in the profession itself and the consolidation of private practice by private equity that’s come into the marketplace is we’re seeing disruption we haven’t seen before. And I was talking to one of our board members, doctor board members about it, and we were just, he was pointing out all of the things that are kind of out without from under, excuse me, out of our control. And as we were talking about it, I had this thought and I told him, I said, it’s a great time to be alive, isn’t it? Because we’re the ones that get to go through this. And in many ways, I believe that our profession is going through a transformation that will take probably a 20 year period of time, but 40 years from now, optometry I don’t think will look anything like it does today. And it’s always bumpy to be in the middle of that turbulent transformation. The eighties were very steady, the nineties were pretty steady. It was starting about 2010, 2000 that things started rapidly changing. And then the acceleration with just technology and everything else is just, and then you’ve got now the whole world of artificial intelligence coming into play. And I consider it exciting, vigorating challenging, but I mean, what’s the alternatives? Be bored. Right?

Chris (32:56):

Well, if you don’t adopt and figure out to use it, you die. So it’s a great segue to what are some of the things you do to kind of foster that maybe innovative mindset of how you’re going to embrace the technological changes and use them in the business model to further the brand and the

John (33:16):

Business. So there’s very limited I can do without the support of the doctor owner community. And sometimes there’s a lot of indecision because when you’re not sure what to do, you’re scared of doing the wrong thing. Right? Sure. Well, and it seems like you got a lot of

Chris (33:36):

Opinions

John (33:37):

That are out there too with all these member doctors. You got a lot of them. And so what I have to do is to influence them through other people and through information to get them to a point of being open enough to consider ideas that they might consider sac religion. In some cases, for instance, what is real common in most optometry practices today is what’s called an auto refactor. It’s a machine that people go through and it gives you a prescription, and the prescription is used by the doctor to zero in on where your visual acuity is.

Chris (34:17):

Right? Okay.

John (34:18):

Well, when that first came out, optometrists thought that was the end of the profession. Here’s a machine that’ll do what I’m doing. And so there’s a fear oftentimes of innovation that you have to assure people that there’s a way to use this to our benefit. And that’s what we’re going through with artificial intelligence right now. One group is scared to death, it’s going to replace ’em. The other group is glad they’re old enough, they’re probably not going to have to go through with it. And then you’re looking for those people who say, Hey, how can we utilize this to really to our benefit? And once people feel it’s safe enough to try, then the people realize that the fear is misplaced.

Chris (35:02):

So true. But it takes education, information, patient and influence, as you said, to get people

John (35:10):

To

Chris (35:10):

Get there so that they can

John (35:12):

Adopt it. One of the things that I teach my team to say, and I mean to believe, and I say it all the time, is we believe in everybody’s right to make a bad decision. So if someone listens to us and they choose not to do what we’re recommending, and we know it’s a good decision, what we’re recommending, and they choose not to, it’s their right. I mean, everybody’s right to waste their own money. There you go. So that kind of patience is necessary with a group like ours. In many ways, it’s working with a volunteer

Chris (35:41):

Organization. Yeah. Well, lots of challenges there, I’m

John (35:44):

Sure. Yeah.

Chris (35:45):

Well, John, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you sharing everything. Sure. Want to ask you, I guess going back to your days, I guess, growing up in Kansas, what was your first

John (35:53):

Job? Drug drugstore, Rexall Drugstore, and I grew up in a town of 2000 people, and my dad was the family physician of the community. And so of course, in a town like that in western Kansas, the doctor and the pharmacist are close relationship.

(36:13):

And so I got my first job at a drugstore working a soda fountain, delivering prescriptions, restocking, things like that. Had a blast. And that really, I learned a lot in that, not just like everybody, you learns a lot from their first job, but understanding, I was intrigued by Rexall. I don’t know how familiar with Rexall, but Rexall was a national organization that gave private ownership of drug stores, the purchasing power of a large corporate chain. And so my employer was the pharmacist. He owned the drugstore, and he stood up in the stand in the Es every day, counting pills and chatting with people. So that was my first job.

Chris (36:59):

Very good. Well, you’ve been in Texas now since what, the late

John (37:02):

Eighties? 89.

Chris (37:04):

So do you prefer Tex-Mex or Barbecue?

John (37:06):

Barbecue.

Chris (37:07):

Okay.

John (37:08):

Barbecue.

Chris (37:08):

Very good. My

John (37:09):

Waistline prefers

Chris (37:10):

Barbecue

John (37:11):

Too.

Chris (37:12):

And last thing, if you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do?

John (37:17):

I don’t know. Probably nuts. I’ve got to be engaged and I mean, I don’t have to be, I’m not select. I love business and I love the challenge it has. So you said earlier in our discussion about you were describing about the law firm. When I was doing consumer research, I did some healthcare work. 12 Oaks Hospital was a client. But I would tell people is I specialize in a process, not an industry. The process is the same. And I would say that’s what I really love about business because when you boil it down to what I do and what you do and others that run businesses, it’s the same process. It’s understanding your customer and then directing how your services or products benefit that customer and communicating. And the whole marketing scheme of promotion, price, product, and place applies to every industry. And so I’d probably do something if I had 30 days and like I said, I’d go nuts, that’s

Chris (38:18):

Where Well, but I think what you just said there in the end is you have great insight and learning for business owners and entrepreneurs out there. You’re trying to find their way. It is figure out what the consumer that you’re catering to really wants and then deliver that as efficient, best you can.

John (38:35):

That’s why when I first got into consumer research, I thought, this is cheating. I mean, you’re actually going out and saying, what do you want? They tell you and then you give it to ’em. I mean, it’s amazing.

Chris (38:49):

Yeah. Right. Well, this has been great, John. Thanks again for taking the time.

John (38:52):

You bet. Really appreciate the, really enjoyed meeting invitation.

Chris (38:58)

And there we have it. Another great episode. Don’t forget to check out the show notes at boyarmiller.com/podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at boyarmiller.com. That’s it for this episode. Have a great week and we’ll talk to you next time.