Ep 83- Empowerment and Innovation in Childcare with Amyn Bandali

Transcript

Transcripts are generated by machine learning, so typos may be present.

BTB (00:00):

Welcome to the Building Texas Business Podcast, interviews with thought leaders and organizational visionaries from across industry. Join us as we talk about the latest trends, challenges, and growth opportunities to take your business to the next level. The Building Texas Business Podcast is brought to you by BoyarMiller, providing counsel beyond expectations. Find out how we can make a meaningful difference to your business at boyarmiller.com and by your podcast team where having your own podcast is as easy as being a guest on ours. Discover more at yourpodcast.team. Now. Here’s your host, Chris Hanslik.

Chris (00:42):

In this episode, you will meet Amin Bend, CEO of Ivy Kids Systems. Amin discusses the value and importance of building a culture of empowerment that includes autonomy, transparency, and timely feedback. He also stresses the importance of understanding the why as you develop and execute on strategic initiatives. Amin, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for agreeing to come on the show.

Summer (01:12):

Yeah, thank you for having me, Chris. Happy to be here.

Chris (01:15):

So you’re the CEO of Ivy Kids Systems. Tell the listeners what Ivy Kids is. What do you do? What are you known for?

Summer (01:23):

Yeah, so Ivy Kids, we are a premier childcare brand, not just a daycare where parents just come in to pick up and drop off. We provide education, and that’s from the infant level, so as young as two months old, all the way to our pre-K program, which is five and six year olds. And then we also have an afterschool program as well where parents pick up and drop off from elementary school. The kids come in for homework help and we’re next year celebrating our 20th anniversary.

Chris (01:52):

Congratulations. That is amazing. Yes. So what was the inspiration to get into this primary care, primary childcare, education, afterschool learning? Where did that emanate from?

Summer (02:05):

Yeah, so a little bit about our history. So Ivy Kids was actually founded by my parents, Alan Layla. We had moved from Canada to the States or to Houston in 1995, and we lived in Pearland. So as you’re probably aware with Pearland, it experienced massive growth. During that time, five 18 had one stoplight. Now it’s a six lane highway it feels like,

(02:31):

But my parents, with my brother and I being young children, they found a very hard time finding high quality care for us. We would be in the daycare system, mom and pop childcare or prestigious childcare program, and it was observation where there was no learning going on or my brother and I would be picked up and we’d have a bumper bruise and nobody would be able to point out why my parents being engineers and also having a history of entrepreneurship from their parents and their grandparents. They thought about this industry and they thought, Hey, we could do a better job of running high quality schools. So I like to say they reversed engineered childcare. They put a lot of time and thinking. And over that course of 10 years from when we moved to Pearland to 2005, we opened our first school and that was in the Pearland area, and it did really well. So from that, we grew from that one corporate location to then five corporate locations. And then when I joined the business in 2015, and I can talk about the reasons why, but that was when we decided to franchise our brand. And today we are at 20 locations. We actually just opened our 20th location about a month ago, and we have 16 under development right now throughout Texas and the southeast United States.

Chris (03:59):

Just curious, I guess the 20 that exists and the 1600 development, how many of those are franchised versus corporate owned?

Summer (04:08):

So we still own all of the corporate locations today. We are at five corporate locations and we are at 15 franchise locations. I think one of the things that shows maybe a strong brand and happy franchisees is folks opening their second or third locations. And even though we opened our first school in 2017, that’s been one of the great things to see as a franchisor, seeing folks open their second or third location looking for sites for that. And that’s kind of where we are right now in the evolution of the business, which is really exciting to see.

Chris (04:44):

That sounds exciting. So going back to the beginning in listening to the story you were telling about your parents, yeah, it sounds like a very common entrepreneurial inspirational moment where they see a gap and figure out a way to fill that gap or a need, and in this case, quality childcare.

Summer (05:05):

Yeah, absolutely. They saw a lot of great things about this business, which really stand today. And if you do right by that family, you do right by that child. You are having that parent for 10 years from when their infant to that afterschool program, they saw that childcare is a need, not a want. If you have a dual income family, you have to put your child somewhere where they’ll feel safe, where they’re learning. And from that, they saw a need in building their first Ivy kids too.

Chris (05:40):

Well, there’s so much research out there about the importance of education in an early age that then catapults a child into future learning future success as opposed to not getting that in the early ages and kind of the downward trajectory that can cause.

Summer (05:58):

Yeah, I mean there’s some amazing studies. There was one that was done about eight years ago by Harvard University that basically said 95% of who you are is from the first five years that you were born. Everything from what your passions are to your ability to learn. So much of that comes from those first five years. And then if you think about, Hey, what is the best return on investment then for my education, it’s not necessarily those prestigious universities that does have a high rate of return, but the best ROI actually that a family can spend that a government could spend is that first five years and getting that part right. If you’re doing that, then you are truly building that foundation. And I think that’s one of the drivers for why families make a decision they’re looking for. They’re seeing the benefits, they’re understanding more and more of the link between high quality learning and how their child is going to do, and they’re making a smarter decision now with where they’re choosing to roll their child.

Chris (07:06):

So let’s go a little bit so we understand your parents’ inspiration. You alluded to this, but I want to understand what drew you into the business? What were you doing before and what was it that caused you to leave that to step in and kind of take over? I guess, what is best described as a family business?

Summer (07:27):

So by the time we had opened our first school, I was in college or close to college, and seeing the business upfront, seeing the ability to build your own path, create your own destiny, working in the business from everything from us assembling the furniture when we were opening our first school, actually laying the grass and the sod down in order for us to get our co inspection passed, I was just so enthralled by it. I was so excited about it, the ability of owning something and really charting your destiny, and that really didn’t leave me. In college, I also took a job, it was with student agencies, which is a business run by undergrads, and I did sales there and that also really excited me too. And then I kind of went the route that a lot of students at Cornell did for undergraduate business, which was pursue finance, look at the business consulting route or the investment banking route.

(08:31):

And I learned a lot going down that path, but I missed being in that small business, really building something that was my own, working with a dynamic team and a small team. And I think building some of that foundation, this amazing opportunity came that was presented by my dad to say, Hey, let’s franchise the business. We’ve got something great going. This will be an amazing opportunity for other like-minded people to open their own locations and thrive. And I just thought, man, this marries what I did earlier. I’ve got a bit of foundation for working at larger organizations. Maybe there’s something there. And it turned out to be a good decision.

Chris (09:19):

Very good. That’s great. I love the story and how you were able to, I think it’s important you got an education and you got real world experience outside of that to then bring that into and maybe help professionalize a little bit at the company, especially as it was launching into being a franchisor.

Summer (09:36):

Yeah.

Chris (09:36):

So you mentioned working with the team. Let’s talk a little bit about some of the ups and downs that you’ve experienced and maybe that you saw your parents early on experience and building the team around you so that the company can achieve that success. Because if I know anything about hiring, it’s an imperfect thing, right? Part science, part art, but you do your best to get it right. You don’t always make the right decision. So tell me, let’s talk a little bit about those experiences, what you’ve learned from that.

Summer (10:07):

Yeah, I mean, I think going into small business entrepreneurship, there’s very much a feeling of working in the business, being so kind of head down and focusing on, Hey, how do we survive today? And I think when you’re joining or launching a new business, which really was the franchising part of our business was a brand new business. You are really thinking in that lens and that mindset. And I always feel like hiring, building an infrastructure, it just allows you to think more and that just prolongs the lifespan of your business too. So I think making those rights, strategic hires, as soon as we have that capital thinking ahead about, Hey, where do we want to be in the next five, 10 years? And investing in those people and really giving them the freedom and empowerment to expand their careers, expand their responsibilities as you’re seeing them master their role.

(11:04):

I think that really helped. One book that I read early on about a year or two after I joined the business was Traction by Gina Wickman, the entrepreneurial operating system. I mean, that’s something that we do today, and I think that was foundational in how I look at people helping the assistant, Hey, do we have the right people in the right seats? And then are we creating a culture of empowerment? I think about what attracted me to Ivy Kids and starting this franchising part of the business, and it was this idea of taking ownership, having accountability, maybe having a little bit too much rope, and I just think, hey, at a size that we are, those are probably the people that I’m going to be attracting to and how can I create that where if I were in their shoes, I’d want to be a part of this business. And I think some of that where, hey, there’s alignment on goals, but hey, you have the empowerment and you have the ability to achieve it, and how you achieve it and how you get to that final product is up to you. I always feel like that allows you to really grow people, especially when you’re smaller, maybe you have that limited capital base and now you can start thinking strategically about your business and then your business can really grow.

Chris (12:24):

I love that term culture of empowerment. Let’s talk about culture. Everyone agrees, culture’s king and every book you read and each strategy, all those cliches. What have you done to foster and build this culture of empowerment within Ivy

Summer (12:44):

Kids? I think of myself as a generalist and I think of myself as, Hey, I am not the best person in any department. And I think as you grow as a leader, that is just what naturally happens. You have to build a team of people that are smarter, more experienced, I would say, better than you in each of these divisions, in each of these areas. So I think just thinking, Hey, if I’m growing or if the business is growing, I have to increase the skillsets of everything around me, and I have to play more of that generalist mindset. And with that, it’s let me bring these people on and let them be the experts in the subject matter experts of what they’re doing now, alignment and vision and where we are, and ensuring that, Hey, prove to me that you can do this job is still very important. We still need to have check-ins and make sure that, hey, are we all marching to that direction and where we want to go as a company? But at the end of the day, I do think that people are more passionate if they feel a sense of ownership. If they can look back and they can see, oh, I or my team accomplished this.

(14:04):

I’m getting praise for those kind of things. One of the things that we do, we have quarterly town halls and we do shout outs, and it’s a thing that I love. We just had ours on Friday and the team gives each other shout outs. But I think when people are empowered and we are able to showcase, you did a great job, and this is why, and this is what your team is doing is getting the company moving forward is amazing. And that might be harder to create that visibility as a company grows, but it is something that I like to keep on the forefront of my mind because people empowering people, it’s just like this flywheel of

Chris (14:45):

Positivity, right? Right. It is like the snowball or flywheel effect, it just grows upon itself. The shout outs that you mentioned, I don’t think it can be overstated. The value and just simple recognition, private recognition’s great, but the public recognition amongst someone’s peers, I mean it doesn’t replace cash rewards, but some people value it as much or more. And I think that you would take the time to do that in a thoughtful way. I can see where that would inspire your people to do more, right? Or well, gosh, your coworker got it. I’m going to do something so that the next quarter, I get it to your point, that flywheel effect, it just creates this atmosphere and culture of wanting to achieve and be successful. Hello, friends, this is Chris Hansley, your building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations, and business leaders. Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm@boyermiller.com and thanks for listening to the show. The other thing I heard you say is there’s a key piece of autonomy to create the culture of empowerment within Ivy Kids and given your people the autonomy to go do what they do, what they’ve been hired to do

(16:23):

Without being micromanaged.

Summer (16:24):

Yeah, that’s exactly right. I mean, I always think back to when I first started out in my career as an investment banking analyst, you are spending 80, a hundred hours a week. You’re working on these pitch decks, you’re grinding until 2:00 AM you’re working on this project, and now all of a sudden you have this package, you deliver it to your managing director, and then they go to a meeting and you never hear back.

Chris (16:49):

You come up from the dungeon, right?

Summer (16:50):

Exactly. And I always was like, Hey, I wonder what that client thought or if that what I did had an effect. And that’s that part where I’m like, well, am I doing that as a leader? Am I these blockages? Because people want to learn and people want to be in those meetings. I think everybody wants to be in that meeting and see where their work is leading to. And I just always think, Hey, if I were working for me when I was starting off, would I have liked myself as a boss? And that also means, hey, a clear vision of where that person is heading, what am I doing and what am I not doing well? I think feedback, transparency. I really try and instill that criticism is not a negative word. Problems are not bad. Problems are just identifications of what we can all do better. I like hearing problems too, and that could be of what we’re doing and just what’s going on within the organization.

Chris (18:00):

The way I would phrase what I just heard you say is it’s about mindset. You can someone’s performance from a positive mindset or a negative mindset and say, look, okay, this didn’t go well, but it’s a learning moment. Let’s find the learning as opposed to chastise and criticize and beat someone down. And I think same situations handled one versus the other can encourage and empower someone to want to do better or discourage them to put their tail between their legs and maybe even leave your organization when it’s not someone you necessarily want to leave.

Summer (18:37):

This is a thing that comes over time. It comes with empowerment, it comes with celebrating wins, celebrating that publicly. It comes with a culture of positivity. It is also something that I feel like is so important when you are owning a small business, when you’re opening a business, is separating yourself and yourself, identity and ego in some ways from your business. It’s something that I try and share with our franchisees when they’re opening a school and they’re having a quality assurance visit or their first maybe not ideal interaction with a parent. I mean, there’s a real personal feeling there. It

Chris (19:20):

Is easier said than done, right? It is. But to your point, very important to do so. Let’s dive into some of those subjects because you start the franchise part of the business, I think you said in 2017. So it seems to me you’re getting it off the ground, it’s going well, and then a global pandemic hits. Let’s talk about managing through uncertainty, economic downturn, especially when your business is predicated on kids coming into a public basically facility and gathering together when that wasn’t going on.

Summer (19:56):

Yeah, I remember March of 2020, I think our average school enrollment was about 200 children, and I think it went to 40 in two weeks. So very stressful period, as you can imagine. And one thing that I learned from the pandemic or from our team, and in businesses you can really pivot on a dime, and I think that’s something that I’ve taken from me too, is we went to online learning for two, three hours every day. We were able to orient the company in that direction. It ended up generating a million dollars of revenue for our franchisees, which a benefit. We were able to do things like private kindergarten, we’re able to do a virtual program for elementary school children. They were able to come in our schools and do the virtual learning from the elementary teacher at our schools, and everybody was separated apart. So we were able to come up with revenue generating ideas. We weren’t able to make up entirely for the loss revenue due to covid, but we were able to do some really amazing things and stay in really close communication with our franchisees because as you know, each city, each state had their own requirements. I think I learned a lot from that. Hey, if you’ve got a long-term goal, a long-term plan and things change within your business, that doesn’t mean you don’t change your goal. You can orient things, you can turn things on a dime. And although things have returned to normal in many respects or pre covid, I think the learnings from that has helped our innovation and just saying, Hey, let’s push a little bit more. Let’s try a little bit more.

Chris (21:53):

I love it because I think the lesson there is despite what comes at you, whether it was in your control or not, there’s always opportunity. So again, it goes back to mindset, I think, okay, get you or your team together and go, okay, where are the opportunities out of this that we probably wouldn’t have seen before? And I think, like you said, you see so many people, especially in your industry now that kids are back in your facilities, doesn’t take away the opportunities for online learning you can do, and it’s just added revenue.

Summer (22:26):

Yeah, that’s right. I think a franchisee, they open and they think, oh man, these problems are just centered around me. And oh my gosh, I’m opening a business. And it’s luckily now you’re around 20 years of experience of us operating. But also imagine those franchisees that had that same feeling and they opened during 20 20, 20 21 where we had to do everything virtual. So I think as a business owner, you have to be an optimist. You have to look for, Hey, what are ways that either I could turn this around or generate wet revenue growth mindset is just so important. Yeah,

Chris (23:09):

So true. So you mentioned innovation. What are some of the things that you have done or that you may be doing now to kind of foster innovative ideas, innovative thoughts within your team that you can then implement with your franchisees, et cetera?

Summer (23:27):

I think so much of that comes from our goals and seeing, hey, what can we continue to do to further differentiate ourselves as being the leading provider of early childhood education? I mean, you look at our curriculum, we have a lot of mom and that are great in varying levels of quality and large franchise organizations too. And what you find is there has not been a great deal of innovation in the curriculum space and in education. So really it’s us thinking at things differently like, Hey, just because everybody else is doing the same thing, is that grounded in the research of today?

Chris (24:12):

Right.

Summer (24:12):

Does that relate to the teachers of today what children need to learn in order to be successful in the elementary school and middle schools in the communities that they’re in today? I think just always trying to understand the why. I think why is one of the most important questions that you can ask, and that’s really what I do in the meetings is understand, Hey, why are we doing this? How are we doing this? I think that generates a lot of thought within our team. Then once we have those strategic tools in place, we have those systems in place. Then what is our cadence to see how we’re executing on it and seeing how we’re going within that. So I always think goal setting at the year, understanding what those rocks are each quarter, but then, hey, just because it’s a status quo does not mean that’s good enough. So even in our curriculum, implementing coding and robotics, parent assessments that are digital, so you can see every month, every two months exactly what your child’s doing in the classroom, camera access. So as a parent, you can see exactly what’s going on in your child’s classroom. Those are not just tried and true things. Those are things that came from great communication with our parents, a team that is flexible, thinking about what they would want to see as a parent and then great execution.

Chris (25:35):

Wow, that’s great. So you mentioned robotics. I got to ask, what are you doing or what’s on the horizon as it relates to your curriculum and your delivery of your C childcare and child early childhood education as it relates to ai?

Summer (25:52):

Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I think tools like AI are amazing. There’s so much that you can do in regards to communication. Idea generation, I think for us is just, hey, when it comes to technology, how do we ensure that children today are well equipped for their technological and what the future provides too? So when we talk about coding and robotics, it’s not just sitting in a computer and coding. It’s even from that two or 3-year-old level of doing logic puzzles. If then statements, if I take a certain input and I am bringing code puzzles to it, what do those outputs look like? So it’s a great way of them to manipulate in a coding language, but not also spending time in the computer and being in front of a screen too, which shows a negative impact due to research for that young and F in age. So we are making steps towards that direction. We are not diving full ahead. To me, it’s one thing to be first in an area, but I’d rather do it best,

(27:08):

And I’d rather do it where we are not just testing things on children, but we are providing something that is impactful, that’s based on research that we know we can implement really well. And I think you’re going to continue to see growth in that area too. Other things is just back to a naturalistic component. Having things like gardens in our schools teaching children, Hey, the food does not just come from HEB, it comes from the ground, and this is why. So I think innovation is a big part of it. I think AI and us trying to incorporate that is something that we’re thinking through and we have some ideas around, but for now, hey, how do we take these certain things and break it down by age group to have a great curriculum and

Chris (27:55):

Process? That’s great stuff. I mean, I can imagine parents get excited about hearing about that fundamental learning that their kids are going to get to experience with. You. Turn a little bit to building strategic relationships, partnerships and things that you have, obviously relationships with franchisees, but other key advisors or relationships you have. Let’s talk in the context of the value you’ve seen in that, how you think that’s helped grow the business and how you lean on those from time to get you through to the next stage, if you

Summer (28:34):

Will. Yeah, I mean, I think you always want to be around people that are adding to your skillset and have exceptional talents in those skill sets. I think about continual learning. Luckily in franchising, it’s an amazing model in way for people to share best practices. The IFA International Franchise Association has amazing resources, especially for emerging franchisors. They have great conferences and that’s a great way to share ideas. I’m part of a mastermind group of franchisors, 50 to a hundred units, and just learning and seeing what best practices that they do. They advocate a lot for transparency within a franchise system. Franchisees sharing what their p and ls look like, what’s going well, what’s not going well in the business, and franchisees learning from each other and sharing best practices. That’s something that we’re implementing more in our business with benchmarking and KPIs and performance groups. Even being part of a local community. I’m part of a Vistage group here in Houston. I think that is an amazing asset going and meeting people in person, seeing their businesses, touring their locations. I think sometimes being an entrepreneur, being a CEO can be a very isolating experience

Chris (29:58):

For sure.

Summer (29:59):

All the fingers are pointing at you and all the hard questions come to you too. So being able to learn from others, I mean, learning from mistakes is great. Then you’re not making ’em and they’re less costly. So I’m always about trying to learn from other

Chris (30:16):

People. Well, you alluded to one of my favorite questions there, so I always like to ask a guest, we do learn from mistakes, and it is nice if you can learn from someone, but has there been a setback or something you would describe a mistake or again, learning moment, like I mentioned earlier, you’ve encountered, and let’s talk about what that was, but what’d you do to overcome it? What was the learning and how did it make you better?

Summer (30:45):

I think the learning that I encountered is not stepping into the business. And I think my idea of being a generalist came from mistakes. Being young and eager, wanting to jump in, Hey, I can write this operations meal because I’ve spent time in the business. Or, Hey, use this marketing plan or this idea because it worked for me. I think the big one was covid early on, oh my gosh, I was seeing the business totally transform. I need to be in this. I need to be a wartime CEO or senior member. I need to be here. I need to be calling the franchisees. And really, our team had great ideas and approaches, and they were thinking about the business and their fears around the business in a similar way that I was.

(31:45):

And the moment I snapped out of it was, Hey, this training is great, but think about X, Y, and Z that the franchisee is going through. And I had my operations person tell me that, and I think it was a, oh my gosh, I’ve sucked myself into this business. Yes, there was a big change, but I talk about empowering my people. That also means not just when moments are good, but when moments are bad as well. So I think that goes both ways and relationships strengthen sometimes when you’re giving someone the rope when the business is not going that well.

Chris (32:21):

Right. But man, that’s powerful. I certainly see how that was an aha moment for you and again, for your people, that you trusted them enough in those times, had to go a long way.

Summer (32:37):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s kind of like war stories during Covid or the up and down, but having kind of a business history and having institutional knowledge, I mean, those are amazing tenants. A franchisee joins. They have now someone on the operations team that’s been with you for 20 years, but you’re also incorporating newer people who are excited about the culture that we’re trying to build. That’s really important.

Chris (33:10):

Yeah. Well, I think you’ve talked around this, but just to kind of crystallize it, I do want to ask, how would you describe your leadership style and how do you think that’s changed or evolved over time?

Summer (33:24):

That’s a really good question. I mean, I would say I like to empower people. I like to set goal and a vision. We have a vision of where we want to be as a company, and I want to understand what people think and how they see us getting there. And I’d like to see that individual develop KPIs, what they think are the right metrics, and I want to understand the why’s behind that. And then we’ll get together and figure out alignment there. But I like to see how people think. I like to see thinking, I want a demonstration of why they are getting to that problem or what their reasoning is around that problem. Then we check in and I let them do it. I always think about how if I was the low man on the totem pole, how empowered would I feel? What are my responsibility? And I think that attracts passionate people, and that’s what I want to see. I want to see passion because I’m giving that responsibility.

Chris (34:36):

As you were talking, it made me think. We talked about learning from bad experiences or maybe seeing something and going, okay, I experienced this, but I don’t want to repeat that. And I can’t help but think you learned so much those early days as an analyst and how you were treated

Summer (34:56):

To

Chris (34:56):

Go, if I’m ever in a position of leadership, I’m not going to do these things. And it probably serves as a good reminder and a guidepost for you to say, no, remember what I didn’t like, and let’s do the opposite.

Summer (35:10):

You learn a lot from great managers and you learn a lot from not so great managers. And I think I had a lot of those on my bucket list. And I think a lot of just reflection too. I mean, I really try and take feedback and I really try and understand, hey, I mean I’ve made a lot of mistakes and I think it’s just, Hey, let me try not to make that a second time.

Chris (35:35):

But the sad truth is you’re going to make some more, as will I. And the goal is try not to make the same one twice, right? That’s right. That’s right. I mean, this has been great. What an exciting business you have going. Before we wrap up, I just always like to ask a few maybe less serious questions. What was your first job outside of Ivy Schools?

Summer (35:58):

My first job was a company called Student Agencies In college, I sold ad space on the maps that you’d see around the Ithaca campus and these brochures. And I also helped with marketing promotions, promotion. I actually dressed up in a mascot outfit was a big light bulb. It was for an entrepreneurship idea competition. So I was a light bulb for a few weeks around campus

Chris (36:27):

Talking about humility, right? That’s

Summer (36:28):

Right. That’s

Chris (36:29):

Right. And if you sold ad space for a brochure, I have to believe you got used to hearing the word no.

Summer (36:36):

Oh man. Yeah, no is common. It was very

Chris (36:40):

Common. Okay, so you grew up in land Texan as you can get. So do you prefer Tex-Mex or Barbecue?

Summer (36:48):

Oh, Tex-Mex for

Chris (36:49):

Sure. Something you missed when you were up in Ithaca, I

Summer (36:52):

Guess. Oh man. Yeah. You didn’t see much Tex-Mex over there.

Chris (36:55):

Yeah. Well, I mean, this has been a great conversation. Congratulations on the success of the family business and where you’ve taken it since joining and in the franchise side of things. Really appreciate you sharing that story with us and wish you the best success in the future.

Summer (37:10):

Alright, thank you so much, Chris. I enjoyed it.

Chris (37:14):

And there we have it. Another great episode. Don’t forget to check out the show notes at boyarmiller.com/podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at boyarmiller.com. That’s it for this episode. Have a great week and we’ll talk to you next time.